MR
& MRS BATES & SON
talking to Les J. Parkinson
How
could we go by in a Q&A series without including the National FC average
winners for 2001, this alone has got to be an achievement in itself. My
first contact with George & Maureen Bates was when they won the section
in the National FC and I was compiling the race report. I have since met
them at the National presentation and had a good chat to them with the
result being this article that I hope you enjoy.
Q.
Please introduce yourself and tell us how you got started in the sport?
A. I was brought up with pigeons, as my father was a pigeon fancier all
his life and I actually flew in partnership with him when I got older
as G. Bates & Son. Maureen and I were married in 1960 and when we
moved into our first house in 1963 we started racing in the partnership
of Mr & Mrs G. Bates & Son, our son being Tim who was 2yrs at
the time. Tim still retains an interest but has never been an active partner
but we can rely on him to feed the birds occasionally if necessary. Prior
to our marriage Maureen had not had anything to do with pigeons but decided
very early on that "If you can't beat them join them". since
that time Maureen has become a very essential part of our breeding and
racing partnership.
Q.
Give the readers the basic results that you have achieved as a partnership?
A. Since forming the partnership in 1963 of Mr & Mrs G. Bates &
Son we have won hundreds of club and federation 1sts, 5 x 1st Combines,
11 x 2nd Combines etc. In the last 5yrs we have won over 100 National
FC open positions including 1st Section 3rd Open Saintes. 13th & 28th
Open Pau. 1st & 2nd Section 16th 17th Open San Sebastian when two
dropped together in 2001.
Q.
Amongst those results what are the real highlights?
A. Obviously the thrill of two dropping together from San Sebastian covering
a distance of 570mls winning 1st 2nd sec 16th 17th open, we also won the
Langstone Cup and National FC averages. It was a great thrill to see these
two pigeons still racing one another after flying such a distance.
Q.
What organisations do you race with?
A. At the present moment we belong to two local clubs on the South Road
the G & D. HS and A.E.I that we use for a few shorter races prior
to the National events the NFC which is our main priority and we like
to compete in all their races. We also occasionally compete in the L &
S.E. Classic and the British Barcelona Club.
Q.
Do you hold any official position and if so do you take an active part,
if no what are your reasons?
A. We were secretaries of the local North Road club for 27yrs and the
South Road club for a while after that but now we don't hold any official
positions other than NFC clock station i/c.
Q.
Do you ever think about competing for averages?
A. Oh yes, this is the benchmark of the season and we like to aim for
the National FC averages every year and in 2001 we actually got there,
a goal achieved with great satisfaction.
Q.
How do you race your pigeons and how many?
A. We have at the present moment room for 48 widowhood cocks but we do
like to race a few natural hens. We do generally like to put some of the
yearlings on the natural system for a year before we graduate them to
the full widowhood team. We select a few of the distance yearlings to
go onto the natural system as it gives them a chance to mature before
going onto the widowhood/ We have found that they need that extra year
whereas the Busschaert family seem to take to it straight away.
Q.
What are your lofts made of and how big are they?
A. All our lofts are made of wood with tiled roofs, we have a 48ft racing
and stock loft plus a 10ft young bird shed. We have four widowhood sections
each measuring 8ft x 5ft plus a small section for stock birds and a large
section for any yearlings that we want to race, plus further stock pairs
that are mainly ex racers, these all fly out.
Q.
Do you attach any importance to having a tiled roof on a loft, if so are
there any benefits?
A. Yes because the ventilation is far better and that is something that
must be right for any winning loft.
Q.
How many stock birds do you keep and do you breed off your race team also
how many pigeons do you think that you need to breed off any individual
stock pair each year to see if they are quality producers?
A.. Our stock lofts are made up of mainly retired racers who are also
proven breeders of winners. We do try to line breed where possible with
the occasional cross brought in. Should we bring in any new birds we have
at least half a dozen youngsters that all have to prove themselves in
the young bird National race. As stated before we have a small stock shed
for 8prs flying to it plus the large section with 24 boxes for stock and
racing hens plus yearlings. We also have a shed with 10prs of prisoners
that were purchased for stock purposes.
Q.
When do you pair your pigeons?
A. All our pigeons are paired at the same time with the preferred time
being either the first or second week in February, in 2002 they were paired
on the 16th/17th Feb.
Q.
Do you move the hens with the young birds?
A. If we plan to send the hens to the old hens National we start training
them when we start the young birds. We don't race the widower hens only
those that are paired with the yearling cocks or selected specially for
the National races, we take the hens from the widowers when the babies
are 16-18days old we then leave the cocks to finish rearing the babies
for another week or so. The youngsters are reared on peas and Hormoform,
we leave a pot of each in their boxes and as soon as the y.b's start coming
out of the bowl's to feed themselves we wean them off into the nursery.
We'll occasionally put a few older widower hen's in with them on a temporary
basis if we think it is necessary.
Q.
What criteria do you set down for the pigeons you winter with your thoughts
on the following seasons racing and breeding?
A. Our thoughts are not only with the following season but the next two
or three years at least, the birds are bred with this in mind and are
all given a chance to prove themselves in one way or another. We always
retain those that we consider will "Make the Grade".
Q.
Do you have any grills fitted in the floor or in the boxes, are there
any advantages to using them?
A. Yes we have grills fitted in the young bird loft and also the stock
loft with the advantage being that the pigeons are not standing on a perch
in their own droppings. As far as the stock birds go they rear 2 or 3
rounds of youngsters each season so have pots of food in front of them
constantly, any food that is thrown about goes under the grills and is
not picked up again by the birds.
Q.
What do you think about the vaccination programme for the pigeons and
do you think it affects the pigeons long term?
A. When we first started vaccinating, we did so in January before pairing
but we experienced a lot of clear eggs so we now vaccinate once they're
sitting about 7 days in their 1st round and it seems to have no effect.
We have been using the 2 in 1 for paramyxo and pox since it has become
available.
Q.
Do you attach any importance to grits and minerals or can the pigeons
get what they want they are out of the loft?
A. Fresh grit and minerals, we think, are essential at all times and we
also give them clay to pick at when they are rearing youngsters.
Q.
Do you use any floor dressing or do you clean the pigeons out daily?
A. We use bed-down floor dressing, a mixture of straw and shavings. Having
tried sand, Chipping's etc we find it very satisfactory. The racing boxes
are cleaned out twice daily and the floor raked over once or twice each
week and renewed if necessary.
Q.
Do you like to have plenty of room for the pigeons?
A. Oh yes, although the individual racing sections aren't so big that
the birds are not under control. The stock birds and any "Natural"
birds are able to fly in and out all day provided someone is at home all
day to keep an eye on them.
Q.
How do you feed the cocks and what do you feed them on?
A. The racers are fed on our Widower mix to our own specification is supplied
by Gem Products, in their boxes morning and evening, plus a few peanuts,
we also mix Hormoform into the corn. The quality of the food is very important,
we buy in bulk to last the season so that the quality remains constant.
We have always a maintained that you must feed the best you can afford.
We rear our birds on the best maple peas and Hormoform and that gives
them a good start in life. Occasionally we will add further maize to the
racing mix if we feel it's necessary, i.e. the weather is very hot or
for the extra distance.
Q.
Do you measure the amount that you give to each pigeon, or are they fed
according to the individual pigeon?
A. When racing they get 3 eggcups full each day any left is emptied from
their pots last thing at night. Some will always eat more than others
and have a preference for certain things but they all get the same initially.
They look forward to me going into the racing lofts to empty the pots
as they know I'll always have a few tit-bits in my pocket for them, (peanuts).
Q.
Do you consider there to be any advantage having a racing partnership?
A.. Yes, as I work but Maureen is at home, so obviously we have an ideal
situation for sharing the work load. I don't have to rush home from work
and see to the birds in the evenings, I sometimes work 6 days a week so
Maureen does the bulk of the work but if I am at home I do it, so it really
is a joint affair.
Q.
Are there any points that you disagree on and if so how do you compromise
a situation where there is a different viewpoint?
A. We always discuss what we are going to do as far as any changes etc
but mostly agree. We don't alter our methods very much so "disagreement"
or "Compromise" don't usually arise.
Q.
To term a phrase are you a professional team of pigeon fanciers and do
your circumstances make a big difference?
A. No, I wouldn't call us a professional team. We race because we enjoy
it and as a husband/wife team it's a shared hobby. It certainly isn't
a "business" like a lot of fanciers. We sell our birds to pay
for our season. I work full time so as I've said before it's my form of
"relaxation", we do have other interests.
Q.
Whenever I have visited a loft fanciers always look at the pigeons eye.
Do you consider that the eye has any importance in (a) the breeding, (b)
distance races (c) sprint races. (d) the pigeons health. Or do you steer
clear of the subject and if so why?
A. A good racing or breeding pigeon will always have a good eye, as well
as whatever else is necessary. I have no real theories on the subject,
other that I avoid pairing 2 light eye birds together.
Q.
Do you use any preventative medication?
A. We use all Gem Products as and when is necessary as set out by them,
I wouldn't call it preventative medicine more a case of providing the
birds needs on a daily basis.
Q.
How many weeks do you think a pigeon can maintain it's form on the widowhood
system for both cocks and hens?
A. We don't fly the widowhood hens but as far as the cocks are concerned
I think their hens play a very important role in helping them stay on
form. We have a shed specially for the hens (see photo) with individual
boxes that are 24ins deep, the fronts are set back so that when the hens
are shut up they cannot see the other birds either side. This helps to
keep them quiet and prevents them from pairing up. They are kept in their
boxes three days prior to basketing where they are fed and watered before
being shown to the cocks on basketing night. This system has the effect
of making them very keen and responsive to the cocks and obviously keeps
the cocks on their toes and maintaining their keenness.
Q.
Does this include channel races or are the specified number of weeks for
sprint races and do you think that a pigeon can be prepared at fortnightly
intervals for the channel races?
A. Yes, they can be prepared for channel races. When we flew the whole
programme, the yearlings would all go to all the short races up to the
1st channel race, then the 2 year olds and upwards would go every 2nd
week to the channel with the yearlings racing the inland in-between.
Q.
Do you think a pigeon has the capabilities of racing both short and long
distance races. Also what distance can a pigeon actually still "RACE"
as opposed to homing from any race point?
A. Yes, some of our best distance racers have won short races @ 2000ypm
in the same season and yes I do think they can still be racing at 500
- 600 miles. Our two birds in the San Sebastian race of 2001 were racing
to the loft after 570mls, there were 3 seconds between them in the clock.
Q.
What proportion of your pigeons get better on subsequent trips to the
long distance races and what do you call distance?
A. Some get the experience and are better for it, others just get the
experience!. At the moment our race in mind is Pau NFC which is 559m to
us but we would like to have a go at Palamos of Barcelona at some point.
Q.
Which is the more difficult, establishing a team of sprinter's or distance
pigeons and why?
A. Distance birds, obviously, as it takes a special kind of pigeon to
fly extreme distances and a lot of time and patience from the fanciers
to establish a team of these kind of birds. It was always our aim to have
a situation where I had a choice of my Pau candidates rather than just
4 or 5 that I considered were capable.
Q.
What happens when you are racing either widowhood or the roundabout when
you have a bad race and lose a few from one sex, how do you continue with
those pigeons who have lost their mate?
A. The widower hens are not raced so if I lose cock birds their hens are
just confined to the hens shed.
Q.
Sprinter or distance, there is no difference, it is all in the feeding?
A. There are good birds and not so good. The really good pigeons will
do all they are asked, providing the management is right. The thing is
to recognise each pigeons potential and act on it.
Q.
Taking into account distance, which is more difficult racing to your area,
is it a case of a 600ml race is a 600ml race regardless of competition
or route?
A. We consider that any good performance into the Kent area in NFC racing
is an achievement.
Q.
What families of pigeons do you keep?
A. We've had the Busschaert's for some time, but since deciding to concentrate
on distance racing, have introduced the Jan Aardens, Van Bruanes plus
stock from E.Froggart, Jim Biss and Fear Bros (through our good friend
K.Hines).
Q.
How do you go about bringing in a new family and what do you look for?
A. Basically the performance's they have been consistently putting up
over the last 4 or 5 years and whether they would enhance my stock as
I like to blend in anything I introduce.
Q.
Do you think that fanciers change for the sake of changing or do you think
a loft can breed a winning team out and lose track of the winners?
A. I don't think "change" for it's own sake does any good, the
clever fancier will take note of what's happening in his loft and act
accordingly, i.e. introduce fresh blood, get rid of dead wood.
Q.
Early in the article we discussed the wind direction, do you consider
that good pigeons will win in any position?
A. As far as club and fed racing is concerned, yes a good pigeon can win
regardless but we think that when it comes to the National races then
the wind plays a major part.
Q.
Some fanciers go out and purchase good quality winning pigeons but never
appear to make the grade, why do you consider that this happens?
A. We think that very often they are not patient enough, also it's one
thing to have good bird's but it is obvious that management plays a very
important part, a lot of fanciers wont listen to advice. I always say
that if you buy from a winning fancier "Take note of his methods,
ask his advice, learn from his experience as well as your own".
Q.
Do you give any special treatments when the pigeons return from the race
as a precaution against anything that they may have picked up in the basket?
A. As previously started we use Gem products as per instructions and we
also put honey in the water on race days.
Q.
Which of the two sexes do you consider is the most important when it comes
to breeding?
A. We could be funny and say both, one of each! but seriously as in any
animal the parents are of equal importance.
Q.
Some fanciers like big hens for breeding does the size of the hen make
any difference to the quality of youngsters that she breeds in your past
experience?
A. We do like a roomy hen because I think that they make better stock
birds but that is just my personal opinion.
Q.
Is there anything that you have not won in the sport that you would like
to achieve?
A. Oh yes, we must all have a goal to aim for and ours is to win the Pau
National which would put the icing on the cake.
Q.
Who do you consider to be the best fanciers in the Country and for what
reasons?
A. When the National FC results are published I look for the same names
and they generally are there up amongst the winners, Geoff Cooper, Staddon
Bros, Kenny Hine, Patrick Bros, Jim Biss all are extremely consistent
distance flier's plus many, many more. I admire those greatly that fly
750mls in the longest race, I think they put up wonderful performances,
even if they don't figure in the result early on.
Q.
What do you think can be done to take the sport forward?
A. Maybe more favourable publicity in the National press and on TV, to
perhaps encourage older people (retired) with time on their hands and
a need for a hobby.
Q.
Are there any special treatments that you give your birds once the season
ha finished what do you recommend the readers to do with the birds?
A. We don't change our treatment, they all get the same good quality mixture
all the year round, clean water and regular treatment for canker, cocci
etc. They go out as often as possible so that they can relax around home.
Q.
When it comes to breeding do you line-breed or use a first cross or just
pair winners to winners?
A. All three, winners to winners, line breeding and the occasional out
crossing
Q.
Do you breed off the top widowhood cocks after the racing has finished,
do you breed late bred youngsters and what do you think of those later
bred youngsters?
A. Yes we do, particularly if we have orders for them, a lot of our good
racers and stock birds have been late breds. "The Gentleman"
1st Comb 10 x 1sts club and sire of winners was a late bred, his nest-mate
won Dax and had 6 x 1sts, the "Gentleman" was 18yrs when he
died.
Q.
If your race team went off form during the season what action would you
take to restore their condition?
A. If they really went off form I would keep them shut up for one week
and feed just a depurative mix if necessary and get the droppings tested.
Q.
Is a favourable loft location the single biggest factor in sprint racing?
A. Of course a loft right on the line of flight has got to have the advantage
in the shorter races but the birds (and the fancier) have still got to
do their bit.
Q.
Do you use the darkness system for the young birds, if so for how long
and do you think it affects them later in life?
A. Yes we do, we have raced our YB's on the darkness for some years, our
old bird performances show that there is no adverse effects on them in
later life. Maureen was really against it at first but was amazed at how
quickly they adapted to it, how well they looked and how easy they were
to handle and keep under control.
Q.
Are there any feeding methods for the young birds i.e. do you break them
down, do you keep them hungry for control purposes, do you give them a
trapping seed mix?
A. We don't break our young birds down, they get the same good mix as
the racing cocks and peanuts. They are exercised from lunchtime till mid
afternoon and fed in with trapping mix then hopper fed, the hoppers are
emptied after one hour.
Q.
What percentage do you consider it takes to win with racing pigeons for
Management and pigeons and why?
A. 50-50, you have to have the tools for the job and the expertise to
do the job properly.
Q.
What is the farthest distance that you would train your old birds or young
birds?
A. 60mls as yearlings and young birds, 2 short tosses of about 12mls for
the widowhood team before racing just to blow away the cobwebs.
Q.
If random drugs tests were carried out on your pigeons, would it reveal
any substance, illegal or otherwise?
A. No, only the vaccine.
Q.
How do you consider that the British sport is going compared to the continentals
and do they have any ideas that you think would benefit the sport in the
UK?
A. I am not really conversant on the subject.
Q.
Is pigeon racing as a hobby going beyond the average working man. Is it
becoming too technical and complicated or can you keep everything simple
and still win with the pigeons?
A. I think it will be if the electronic timing becomes a rule. Very often
the simple methods are still the best. At the moment I don't consider
it excessively expensive comparing it to say, membership of the average
golf club or other sporting organisations. Equipment in any range of sports
or hobbies costs money.
Q.
You are successful fanciers, there are far too many leaving the sport,
to encourage fanciers to either join or stay in the sport what do you
think about limiting prizes to two per race per loft. If not Why. If yes
Why?
A. Our club has had a limit of 4 prizes for some years and many other
clubs do the same, I don't think that it would make any difference.
Q.
Do you think winning fanciers should move on from club racing once they
have reached a certain level of consistency. Are club performances paramount
for personal satisfaction or sales purposes?
A. Some people prefer the week to week "Buzz" and the social
side of club racing, also the cost of National and Classic racing is beyond
a lot of fanciers especially if they have to travel to marking stations.
I think a lot of fanciers are quite happy with club and fed competition,
we were for quite a number of years but then changed the direction that
we wanted to go.
Q.
Do you attach any real importance to the pigeons wing i.e. back wing,
end four flights and do you look at the wing to see if they have cast
before a race. Any other comments on the wing?
A. I do like to see the last four flights slightly longer and I also like
strong secondary flights. I never worry about them casting before a race,
providing that they are fit.
Q.
Do you use any form of heating system in any of your lofts. Do you think
it would be advantages for the birds?
A. The lofts are thermostatically controlled by extractor fans.
Q.
Do the pigeons need any special treatment on their return from the race
to help them relax. Is any such treatment needed for the short or long
distance races or the hard races compared to the easy races?
A. Regardless of where they are racing from they all have honey or electrolytes
in the water and a bath the next day when they laze about in the garden.
Also if it's a difficult or long race the hens are left with them overnight.
Q.
Irrespective of how your pigeons have flown, what are your views on the
past season whether good or bad or the management of the sport in general?
A. Obviously 2001 was a difficult season as far as race points were concerned
but we were delighted to get our four National FC races. I think that
most organisations did the best they could under difficult circumstances.
Q.
With your pigeon work do you have a silent partner i.e. wife, partner
or friend, if so what part do they play?
A. No our son is a partner, although he doesn't take an active part, we
became " & Son" when he was 2yrs old. He's always interested
in how we get on and will occasionally "pool" some of our entries
but that's as far as his involvement goes. I would like to say here that
we have a good friend Mr Cyril Howes who looks after our birds when we
go away. He is a very experienced and successful fancier so we know that
they are in excellent hands, without him we wouldn't be able to go away
without any worries.
Q.
Do you compete in the National events, if not why not. Or are you happy
to race in the club?
A. Yes we do fly National events, all of the NFC races and occasionally
with the BBC or L&SECC. We generally have a couple of club races (short
ones) for training purposes, we decided to do this about 6 or 7yrs ago
and concentrate on the distance.
Les.
We are all looking to such top fanciers as George & Maureen Bates
for ideas on how it is done, by that I am referring to winning at the
highest level of competition, the National FC. I hope that it is not too
late for you to pick up a few ideas on racing against the very best fanciers
in the Country with the National FC. All the best for the coming season's
National events.
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