JOHN
ALLBUTT
of
Sandbach
talking
to Les J. Parkinson
When
do you stop writing about a fancier because you have exhausted the information
available, many years have passed since I wrote my first article on
John Allbutt. The thing is, since I started the Q & A series there
is obviously going to be more info to extract so I sent John the questionnaire
to see what he could do in the way of news for this latest article.
The only trouble with John is you need a lever to get the info necessary
to make a good article, he always seems reluctant to go into depth.
However if you keep on at fanciers they generally come up with the goods
and if you read the answer's carefully there is always something to
extract. What is so pleasing about this series of Q & A is that
I have had a lot of positive words put my way. One comment that did
please me was "Others have tried to emulate but failed miserably"
with the Q & A articles. That's what makes the extra effort with
these articles worthwhile.
John Allbutt
Q.
Let us start with your introduction to pigeon racing?
A. There have always been pigeons in our family and I first raced in
partnership with my father in 1952 and I have raced pigeons on my own
since 1966.
Q.
Give the readers the basic results that you have achieved as a partnership?
A. To give even basic results over the last ten years would cover quite
a bit of ground so I shall give a few details on the National and specialist
type races. 1977. 4th sec L 246th Open Pau. 1st 12th 13th sec L 36th
176th 177th Open YB's. 1998 4th sec L Nantes. 16th 20th sec L YB's.
1999 5th 7th sec L 154th Open Nantes. 8th sec 103rd Open Pau. 3rd sec
48th Open Saintes. 19th 24th sec 48th 229th Open YB's. 2000 5th sec
157th Open Nantes. 3rd sec 37th Open Pau. 10th 21st sec 77th 251st Open
Saintes that also won me the Lancashire Rose Trophy. 2001 19th 22nd
sec Sennen Cove. 19th sec 306th Open San Sebastian. 5th 8th 16th 18th
sec 220th 253rd 368th 378th Open Herstal. 20th sec 197th Open Guernsey.
All with the National FC. In the Midland National FC that I joined in
2000 winning 18th sec 58th Open Le Ferte Bernard. 14th sec 46th Open
Nantes. 1st 18th sec 6th 114th Open Picauville. 2001 8th 36th sec 109th
318th Open Portsmouth. I also joined the North West Classic Club for
2001 with good results including 1st sec 1st Open Portland. Also winner
of 1st Newcastle Specialist Club and 1st Cheshire 2B. 1st Cheshire Combine
6th Three Counties Combine. I also have many club and fed wins at all
distances.
Q.
Amongst those results what are the real highlights?
A. The highlights must be those achieved in the National FC from Pau
over the last five years flying 680mls. I could not forget the National
FC race in 2001 from Herstal where I finished with four in the first
18 in section L from five entered (see above).
Q.
What organisations do you race with?
A. Sandbach with Mid Cheshire Fed, Greenback affiliated to the South
West Cheshire Fed, National FC, Midland NFC. North West Classic. Cheshire
2B. Newcastle 2B. My preference is for the National races but I do like
to compete in the weekly club races because that is where my racing
has been all my life. Every fancier has certain races where they like
to compete but we must not forget the roots of the sport. I have branched
out more in the specialist races and in the last three seasons have
started competing in the NWCC, N2B & MNFC.
Q.
Do you ever think about competing for averages?
A. No but if I win the averages it is an honour but as we all know at
times one race can win you those averages. Early in my racing I used
to compete for all averages but now I just compete from week to week
at club and fed level. The National FC is a different story and I do
like to compete for the average trophy's and especially the Lancashire
Rose trophy because that gives you an indication of how good your pigeons
are competing against the best in the North west.
Q.
How do you race your pigeons and how many?
A All the old birds are raced from 60 to 680mls on the widowhood and
there are generally about 40 in all with a team of young birds raced
on the darkness system.
Racing Pigeon Loft - Old Birds
Q.
What are your lofts made of and how big are they?
A. The widowhood loft is all wood and measures 40ft x 8ft with a full
length corridor and is split into three sections that are for from left
to right, 15, 12 and 15 widowhood cocks. The loft has a front to back
sloping roof and all sliding doors. The young bird loft is 18ft x 6th
divided into two sections and unlike the old bird loft does not have
a corridor. For feeding purposes I do have a table the full length of
the loft under the perches where I feed them, this system also allows
me to control them better because they cannot fly off their perches
down to the floor to get out of the way.
Q.
Do you attach any importance to having a tiled roof on a loft, if so
are there any benefits?
A. I do not have a tiled roof but they do look nice and should give
good ventilation but as I do not have one I cannot really comment any
further. It is all a case of what you have at the time and whether or
not it is worth changing when you already have a winning loft.
Q.
How many stock birds do you keep and do you breed off your race team
also how many pigeons do you think that you need to breed off any individual
stock pair each year to see if they are quality producers?
A. I have usually kept about three pairs but they have been increased
for the 2001 season to six pairs because I do have some of the older
fed winners that I did not want to race any longer. These pigeons have
generally bred winners while they have been racing therefore what I
am putting to stock are pigeons that have done the job in the first
place. Also this enables me to keep the winning lines going, I have
always got them to fall back on. I do most of the breeding off my race
team and find that winner paired to winner or paired to a brother or
sister to a winner does the right job. By finding the breeders in the
early stages means that I do not need to keep a big team of stock that
are then more manageable. The present team of stock birds are made up
of 5prs of Staf Van Reets that are all fed winners except one that has
never raced. The "Denson" Pau cock has also been put to stock
for the 2002 season making up the six cocks.
Q.
When do you pair your pigeons?
A. I always look to pairing the pigeons around the 16th January, both
stock and racers are paired at the same time. Where there are racers
that are yet to prove themselves I do move the eggs from the stock team
to allow them to go to nest quite soon after their first nest, this
means that when they are moved there is not a great deal of difference
in ages.
Q.
Do you move the hens with the young birds?
A. When the youngsters are between 24 and 26 days old I move them along
with the hens to their separate lofts. By this time the hens are on
their second round of eggs but have not yet cast their first flight
and neither have the cocks prior to the arcing season starting. I then
clean everything out, I wash all nest bowls and disinfect the loft.
Q.
What criteria do you set down for the pigeons you winter with your thoughts
on the following seasons racing and breeding?
A. I like to look for the healthy type and the winners for starters
but because they have not all been raced to their potential there are
certain points taken into account. The yearlings must all race to a
distance of 350 to 400mls so that as 2yo's they should be able to race
up to 500mls with the odd ones going on to Pau National. I am now racing
in the right clubs to enable me to give the pigeons the necessary races
that will always allow me to winter the right stock with the following
season in mind. If any fancier is going to go on and win then the pigeons
housed must be selected in a set manor or the whole loft is likely to
fail.
Q.
Do you have any grills fitted in the floor or in the boxes, are there
any advantages to using them?
A. The only grills that I have fitted are fort he widowhood hens the
rest of the lofts are looked after on a daily basis.
Q.
What do you think about the vaccination programme for the pigeons and
do you think it affects the pigeons long term?
A. Vaccination as the rule stands is a chore that we are all required
to carry out but in my opinion if the pigeons are vaccinated as young
birds and yearlings then this should be enough. While DEFRA insist on
a yearly vaccination programme we have no choice and we have to comply
with the rules that are set down. On the actual affect on the birds
all I can say is that we have been racing since I think 1983 and in
all those years I have not seen any adverse long term affect on the
pigeons.
Q.
Do you attach any importance to grits and minerals or can the pigeons
get what they want they are out of the loft?
A. My pigeons all have a good supply of grits and minerals all the year
round in front of them, I think that they do need them to maintain their
health. I always make sure that they are in front of them because if
you do not then they will go off pecking everywhere that they can and
then you are leaving them open to pick up anything.
Q.
Do you use any floor dressing or do you clean the pigeons out daily?
A. The widowhood cocks are cleaned out twice each day throughout the
racing season and I use the white floor dressing which like my corn
is from the Versele Laga range. For the young birds I use the Ossie
floor dressing that I have always found to be all right. I do like to
see the lofts clean at all times.
Q.
Do you like to have plenty of room for the pigeons?
A. The size of your loft determines the amount of widowhood cocks that
you house if you use the standard 30inch widowhood boxes. If you use
those boxes you will find that your pigeons are comfortable in the loft
with each pigeon having sufficient room to satisfy them. If you have
small boxes you will overcrowd and the pigeons are not as happy.
Q.
How do you feed the cocks and what do you feed them on?
A. The widowhood cocks are fed on Versela-Laga widowhood mix and depurative
in their individual boxes via galley pots. Thursday night and Friday
morning they all have a small teaspoon of Red Band and peanuts are only
fed when they are being prepared for the channel races and only one
week before the race that I intend to send them too.
Q.
Do you measure the amount that you give to each pigeon, or are they
fed according to the individual pigeon?
A. All pigeons get a measured amount both morning and evening. When
I am channel racing the pigeons have a hopper of beans, but as expected
they do not eat many and the peanuts are between 6 and 8. (Depending
if you feel generous John).
Q.
You have quoted your position on being Easterly or Westerly do you set
any stall by the position and if so why?
A. Wherever a pigeon fanciers loft is situated it will at sometime it
will be in a favourable position so it is up to the individual fancier
to make the best of it at the time be it club, fed or National racing.
Usually the federation racing favours the Easterly position in the fed
and I am in that position but you must also take into account that I
have also won major federation honours in an East wind when I should
not be favoured. The same applies to National racing when sometimes
the wind is with you and on other occasion's against you. I have won
in all winds and have also felt that good pigeons will win in any wind.
If you take into account the winnings of any top winning loft you will
find that someone somewhere is going to say that they are in a good
position. At the end of the day all races have to be won and winners
generally win at most distances when at times the distance and position
cannot be related as an advantage. No matter how we look at pigeon racing
every race will favour someone, all you have to do is take the rough
with the smooth.
Q.
Do you consider there to be any advantage having a racing partnership?
A. I have only been in one partnership and that was with my father and
it worked very well based on the fact that we always discussed our strategy.
My silent partner is now my wife who helps to basket on race nights,
lets late comers in and feeds the widowhood hens. She is always there
when I need her no matter what is going on, a great help.
Q,
To term a phrase are you a professional team of pigeon fanciers and
do your circumstances make a big difference?
A. What is a professional fancier, I have kept pigeons since I was a
14 year old looking for a hobby and that is how I have treated it ever
since. I am now retired but all my working life that is how it has been
and I for one do not see myself as a professional and neither are many
racing pigeon fanciers in this category. You will still get a few who
do more than others and enjoy the sport but they are still pigeon fanciers
at the end of the day and not professionals.
Q.
Whenever I have visited a loft fanciers always look at the pigeons eye.
Do you consider that the eye has any importance in (a) the breeding,
(b) distance races (c) sprint races. (d) the pigeons health. Or do you
steer clear of the subject and if so why?
A. Through experience of looking into a pigeons eye over many years
can tell you the condition and health that they are in. as far as I
am concerned that is all there is in it but on the other I have never
studied the theory. No matter what aspect of the sport you look at it
is all of interest to someone somewhere and all keeps an interest going.
Eye sign like anything else to do with pigeons is a topical conversation
piece.
Q.
Do you use any preventative medication?
A. As far as preventative medication goes I vaccinate my pigeons in
November and that is all of them including the young birds that have
only been done a few moths earlier. That is why I pointed out earlier
that I believe two injections should be enough and not a yearly chore.
They are then treated for canker, cocci and worms before pairing up
in January. Then after rearing their youngsters they are again treated
for canker and respiratory before commencing training and racing, that
is what that I give to them.
Q.
How many weeks do you think a pigeon can maintain it's form on the widowhood
system for both cocks and hens?
A. I expect my birds to perform from the first race in April that I
have won for the last three years, until the last. I have won that first
race with a pigeon that has also taken a top position in the National
FC Saintes race in Mid July. I expect them to race throughout the season,
pigeon racing is only for a short period and I see no reason why they
cannot complete that task. The old bird season only last about 14 weeks
and because of the channel races they do not complete 14 races which
is not a lot to ask of any pigeon.
Q.
Does this include channel races or are the specified number of weeks
for sprint races and do you think that a pigeon can be prepared at fortnightly
intervals for the channel races?
A. The only change is that a pigeon needs a weeks rest before the channel
race that you intend it to go to.
Q.
Do you think a pigeon has the capabilities of racing both short and
long distance races. Also what distance can a pigeon actually still
"RACE" as opposed to homing from any race point?
A. I believe that a pigeon is quite capable of winning the sprint races
as well as the races up to 500mls. I have a pigeon that was 1st fed
as a 2yo sprinter and later as a 3yo went on to win 14th sec MNFC Nantes.
10th sec National FC. Then as a 4yo 1st fed in a sprint race. I have
referred on more than one occasion in this questionnaire that a good
pigeon will win anywhere. In the modern days of pigeon racing there
are becoming more and more pigeons on the scene that are capable of
doing both jobs. The only thing that I feel I should add to that is
when you get to the 600ml plus races I think you need a different type
of pigeon because there are not many pigeons that will cover these distances
as racers.
Q.
What proportion of your pigeons get better on subsequent trips to the
long distance races and what do you call distance?
A. I believe that a distance race is over 400mls with the extreme distance
being 580mls onwards. I have only ever had one pigeon in this category
of racing better when they get further afield. Generally my pigeons
have won right through the programme on both land and channel, this
depends on the constitution of the individual pigeon and they must be
right at the time.
Q.
Which is the more difficult, establishing a team of sprinter's or distance
pigeons and why?
A. Establishing a team of distance pigeons is more difficult because
it takes much longer, at least three years because your losses are greater.
But in sprint races you should get 100% returns and therefore you can
build your team up much quicker.
Q.
Sprinter or distance, there is no difference, it is all in the feeding?
A. At the moment I have my sprint family and distance family but the
distance team does win the sprint races. This has to be all down to
the pigeon's constitution because they are all fed the same.
Q.
Taking into account distance, which is more difficult racing to your
area, is it a case of a 600ml race is a 600ml race regardless of competition
or route?
A. A 600mls race at National level is harder because in the early stages
of the Pau National for instance there are quite a large number of birds
flying 500/550mls. But when they start to break up and pigeons drop
out those that have the other 150/200mls to go have to work on their
own and therefore it becomes a harder task. At National level the pigeons
are not going into the same area so the longer they have to fly the
more effort they have to put in. No matter what and where a 600ml race
still ha to be won and there are not many pigeons about that would do
that kind of distance..
Q.
What families of pigeons do you keep?
A. I have the Staf Van Reets from Dean Pallatt and Tommy Hulme plus
the Van Den Bosche from Mr & Mrs George Litherland that cover the
sprint to middle distance races. I also have a blend of Busschaerts,
Verhey, Janssen and Staf van Reets that I class as my distance family.
Q.
How do you go about bringing in a new family and what do you look for?
A. If I intend to bring in new pigeons I do look at fanciers who are
winning at the distances that I want to race at. Family or breed is
not a priority as long as they are winning, they must be consistent
modern day winners and not past winners that have dropped off the pace.
You always need to keep up to date if you are a winner loft and want
to stay that way.
Q.
Do you think that fanciers change strains for the sake of changing or
do you think a loft can breed a winning team out and lose track of the
winners, i.e. change to the fashion of the day?
A. Yes I do think fanciers change for the sake of the pigeons of the
day and can quite easily loose track of what you are doing. On the other
hand it can pay off but you do have to be careful. A change can also
keep fanciers going when they have had a lean spell.
Q.
Early in the article we discussed the wind direction, do you consider
that good pigeons will win in any position?
A. I think I have already covered most of this question but to reiterate
my point that a good pigeon will prize in any condition. When I was
1st sec 6th Open MNFC the wind was westerly and in this club I am in
a westerly position but still had a great race.
Q.
Some fanciers go out and purchase good quality winning pigeons but never
appear to make the grade, why do you consider that this happens?
A. No matter what pigeons you bring into your loft you still need to
have good management i.e. feeding, training and conditioning the pigeons.
Many fanciers fail to reach a good standard of management that will
take then into the winner's enclosure. There is plenty of information
available to educate fanciers and if they take enough time to read and
digest that information they will win the races. You will not get everything
out of a book, you will also need to have a good feeling of the pigeons
when you are in the loft. You need to know what each individual needs
to get the best out of them and that only comes by being observant around
the pigeons and you must dedicate yourself to those pigeons.
Q.
Do you give any special treatments when the pigeons return from the
race as a precaution against anything that they may have picked up in
the basket. Is any such treatment needed for the short or long distance
races or the hard races compared to the easy races?
A. Electrolytes that I mix myself and I also treat them every four weeks
for canker because I feel that is one of the worst offenders when it
comes to the health of the pigeons. I use the Electrolytes after all
races right through the programme.
Q.
Which of the two sexes do you consider is the most important when it
comes to breeding?
A. Both must be equal because without them both you cannot breed in
the first place but they do both have to compliment one another. This
is another area where everyone has their own ideas about where the priority
is and it is only through experience that you will learn when it comes
to breeding any livestock.
Q.
Some fanciers like big hens for breeding does the size of the hen make
any difference to the quality of youngsters that she breeds in your
past experience?
A. I feel that the size does not make any difference, it is more a case
of what you prefer but I do like to see a medium sized hen for breeding.
Q.
Is there anything that you have not won in the sport that you would
like to achieve?
A. My main aim at the moment is with the National FC (36th Open) of
Midland NFC (6th Open) and you can rest assured that I am doing my best
to improve on those performances. The ultimate has got to be 1st National
FC Pau/San Sebastian.
Q.
Who do you consider to be the best fanciers in the Country and for what
reasons?
A. I will split this into two sections and look at it from a local point
of view because these fanciers are racing against me into my own area.
There are no doubt others who are also top class fanciers but I do look
at the results of such fanciers as, Tommy Shaw & Son, Mr & Mrs
George Litherland, Joey Adams in the mighty North Staffs Fed. There
is also the Mid Cheshire fed candidate John Woodward. Then we have in
the distance fanciers like Tommy Hulme, Brian Beardmore and Robert Kent
locally. Looking further afield such fanciers as Staddon bros, Geoff
Cooper, George Hilson and Geoff Kirkland. There are a lot of good fanciers
around and many that could be named but where do you stop.
Q.
What do you think can be done to take the sport forward?
A. Where possible federations should start looking at dividing into
four sections with a secretary for each section, the clubs disbanding
and becoming a section. We also need to see more federations combining
to make transporting the pigeons cheaper. We have the idea opportunity
in the Cheshire area but it is going to take time and persuasion to
get them together. As is the case in pigeon racing it is not always
the best thing that is done, fanciers will always have their own ideas
and at times they do stick to them when they would be better making
a compromise and changing direction in the best interest of the sport.
Q.
Are there any special treatments that you give your birds once the season
ha finished what do you recommend the readers to do with the birds?
A. When arcing is over they have tee twice weekly and they are separated
two weeks after the last race and they are still fed on the best corn
because this is when they need looking after for the following year.
This is where many fanciers fall down because they neglect their pigeons
and cut down to a cheaper corn when they should be taking care of them.
Q.
When it comes to breeding do you line-breed or use a first cross or
just pair winners to winners?
A. What I like to do is pair a winning cock to the sister of another
winning cock with the Staf van Reets. I then cross them into the winning
line of the Janssens. I have found this to be very successful and at
the moment see no reason why I should change it.
Q.
Do you breed off the top widowhood cocks after the racing has finished,
do you breed late bred youngsters and what do you think of those later
bred youngsters?
A. I do breed a late bred off the winners and they usually go to other
lofts for stock purposes where they have proven to be very good. I do
like to breed off the pigeons that have worked because this helps them
to settle in the loft for the winter but I rarely keep any of these
because my lofts are usually fully stocked.
Q.
If your race team went off form during the season what action would
you take to restore their condition?
A. The only good solution is to shut up the lofts for about three days
and feed them on depurative, in the past I have found that this has
been the solution. It may not work for everyone but it does for me and
like any other fancier I can only go on my personal experiences. .
Q.
Is a favourable loft location the single biggest factor in sprint racing?
A. Another of those questions that we have mostly covered and is slightly
different because it is aimed at sprint races. Yes wind direction denotes
the fed winner on many occasions but as I have already said you still
need a good pigeon. This is a subject that is very often discussed but
I doubt if it matters where you put a winning fancier because at the
end of the day they will still win. I still think that some fanciers
use the position as an excuse for not winning.
Q.
Do you use the darkness system for the young birds, if so for how long
and do you think it affects them later in life?
A. I have used the darkness system for the last ten years and it has
not affected my old birds, my yearlings race well having good fed positions.
I think it is more a case of some fanciers are not getting the system
right and getting their birds to moult properly which does affect them
as yearlings but they do come good again as 2yo's.
Q.
Are there any feeding methods for the young birds i.e. do you break
them down, do you keep them hungry for control purposes, do you give
them a trapping seed mix?
A. They have a light feed on Monday, Tuesday & Wednesday then for
the rest of the week they have a good young bird mix. I also use Red
Band sparingly and I do not keep them hungry because they are growing
and are expected to work as well.
Q.
What percentage do you consider it takes to win with racing pigeons
for Management and pigeons and why?
A. You require some good pigeons to start with, a team of unsuitable
(crap) pigeons will not win, management, condition, treatment in advance
of racing. When I have timed in from the last race preparation for the
next race begins and not a couple of days before the next race. I would
say 80% to 20%. 80% being the pigeon because if they have not got it
in them in the first place no matter how good the management is the
pigeon still has to be good to win races.
Q.
What is the farthest distance that you would train your old birds or
young birds?
A. My farthest training is a 22ml run by road that is about 18mls flying
distance and they always go to the same place.
Q.
If random drugs tests were carried out on your pigeons, would it reveal
any substance, illegal or otherwise?
A. Definitely not and I believe that random drug tests should be made
a priority and anyone caught using drugs should be banned for life.
People who are winning on drugs are cheats and not doing the sport any
good at all, they are doing genuine fanciers out of prizes that they
should have rightly won. This will also turn fanciers away from the
sport.
Q.
How do you consider that the British sport is going compared to the
continentals and do they have any ideas that you think would benefit
the sport in the UK?
A. Although it appears through reports that we read our systems are
behind times in the UK I do not know enough about them to comment. There
must be something in these reports so other ideas from abroad may well
be worth looking at.
Q.
Is pigeon racing as a hobby going beyond the average working man. Is
it becoming too technical and complicated or can you keep everything
simple and still win with the pigeons?
A. Pigeon racing is still a hobby for many fanciers having a few pigeons
and entering club races. But to extend your programme and compete at
all levels calls for better management.
Q.
You are successful fanciers, there are far too many leaving the sport,
to encourage fanciers to either join or stay in the sport what do you
think about limiting prizes to two per race per loft?
A. This is according to size of club and large membership, a member
has a good race and takes all the prizes, they might only have that
one good race during the year. But in general I think two club prizes
and four fed prizes should be enough for any fancier in the modern day
when numbers are dropping. This is obviously a club decision, it is
a difficult one.
Q.
Do you think winning fanciers should move on from club racing once they
have reached a certain level of consistency. Are club performances paramount
for personal satisfaction or sales purposes?
A. There are fanciers about who are quite content to compete at club
level, it is their hobby and their choice. Probably they are But my
aim is always to win the races that I enter But I do have my preferences,
not everyone can be the same.
Q.
Do you attach any real importance to the pigeons wing i.e. A. back wing,
end four flights and do you look at the wing to see if they have cast
before a race?
A. For the sprint races I do not think that it makes any difference
But when it comes to the all important National events I do take it
all into account. I like a near full wing.
Q.
Do you use any form of heating system in any of your lofts. Do you think
it would be
advantages for the birds?
A. No, it would be an advantage early in the season or in fact at any
time when there is a cold spell, it is more a case of whether it is
a viable proposition to have in your loft all the year round. For a
few odd races I do not think it is worth going to the trouble of putting
it into my lofts.
Q.
Irrespective of how your pigeons have flown, what are your views on
the past season whether good or bad or the management of the sport in
general?
A. Due to the foot and mouth problem almost everyone was disappointed
not racing from France in 2001. The RPRA did their best and we ended
up racing from Belgium. For next season a decision should be made for
future racing either France or Belgium. If France then the normal land
programme But if the intentions are to go to Belgium then we should
look at an Easterly land programme instead of moving them from a southerly
land programme then expecting them to go to Belgium.
Les.
This has been another of the follow up questionnaires from
fanciers after I have completed an early loft report for the Gazette.
I always feel that the system that I am now using is getting more information
from winning fanciers. Once again I am pleased with the end product
because I feel that we are at last getting the fanciers to talk about
their methods. It has always been my view that even if you do tell fanciers
of everything that has gone on in your loft it does not necessarily
mean that others will win with it. You also need to know how to put
everything into practice. Thanks for you time John & Jeanette and
I have not gone into the story of the Pink Floyd song "Another
brick in the wall" aren't I being good.
Click
here for a further interview with John Allbutt of Hassell
